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Hooker as he pertains to Ephraim’s Unrealistic Proposal for the Sake of the Gospel
Posted: 19 January 2010 06:22 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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“If you have the Folger edition it does have the Keble numbering I refer to above from the edition I published in 1994.  So take it down and dust it off and read the Anglican genius.”

Michael, I have a facsimile copy of the Folger edition.  I appreciate you citing texts; I will point out that your citations don’t necessarily prove your argument, but I will read them and let you know.  Thank you for laying out your case from Hooker.

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Posted: 19 January 2010 08:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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A facsimile copy of the Folger edition would be a copyright violation, no?  I published a facsimile of the Keble edition in paperback. Perhaps you have that?  You asked me for chapters and sections I gave you citations, of course, unless you know the numbers (like the old story about jokes) you will have to read the sections I suggested.

The you need to read widely in the scholarship and debate about Mr. Hooker to decide whether or not I am a fringe interpreter or a mainstream interpreter. Then, of course, you might decide you do not like the mainstream interpretations anyway and prefer fringes like Atkinson. I believe I am a pretty mainstream interpreter having been educated in Hooker by Bill Haugaard and John Booty.

I can suggest further reading for you if you like, as can several folks (Ben Guyer for example) on this site.

Perhaps the moderators could like spit this over to its own thread?

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Posted: 19 January 2010 09:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Michael, you might be right; it might be the Keble edition.  I purchased the set at the Seabury-Western bookstore when it first came out.

This is certainly off topic, so it might be better as its own thread.

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Posted: 20 January 2010 01:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Then you own the edition I published Tony!!!!!!!!  My publishing partner, the Rev. Chip Davis and I published the only complete paperback edition of Hooker’s Works in the 20th Century!  Look at the edition’s Introduction you’ll see my name on it.  I sent sets of that edition all over the world because Folger cost $400 and ours cost $49. 

Enjoy!

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Posted: 20 January 2010 09:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Michael Russell - 20 January 2010 01:07 AM

Then you own the edition I published Tony!!!!!!!!  My publishing partner, the Rev. Chip Davis and I published the only complete paperback edition of Hooker’s Works in the 20th Century!  Look at the edition’s Introduction you’ll see my name on it.  I sent sets of that edition all over the world because Folger cost $400 and ours cost $49. 

Enjoy!

Yes I do, and I owe you a debt of gratitude for the edition that you put out.  I may even have met you at S-W around some lectures by David Tracy.  Yes, the price is incredible and I appreciate all the extra writings that are in your edition.

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Posted: 21 January 2010 10:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Michael, I have asked one of the administrators for a new topic heading for the discussion of Hooker.  I do think that we could clog up other discussions with this topic.

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Posted: 22 January 2010 02:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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First, the same edition of Hooker that Michael has had published in a facsimile edition is available online at:

http://anglicanhistory.org/hooker/

Next, beginning in the Preface, Hooker does speak of the use of Scripture for belief and action.  One’s salvation is dependent on both, as Hooker says (III,2).  Hooker mentions two ways that God leads us into all truth, one that he calls extraordinary and one that he calls common.  Revelation and reason are the two ways.  I would say that Hookers words on this are highly applicable to the debate on human sexuality: “when men’s affections do frame their opinions, they are in defense of error more earnest a great deal, than (for the most part) sound believers in the maintenance of truth apprehended according to the nature of the evidence which scripture yieldeth..”  (III, 10) 

pecusa has been taken over by those who all too often read their experience into Scripture rather than allowing Scripture to evaluate their experience.

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Posted: 22 January 2010 03:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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In Book I, Hooker speaks of Scripture as delivering “many deep and profound points of doctrine as being the main original ground whereupon the precepts of duty depend.” (3) To say that Hooker only believed that Scripture was given to lead us to salvation is to truncate Hooker’s understanding of how salvation draws us into the life of God and how the Holy Spirit uses Scripture to conform our lives to God’s ways.  In this section, Hooker mentions that “principal necessary laws of God.”  Unlike contemporary liberals, Hooker does not reduce the gospel to love and then expand love to mean anything any person wants it to mean (e.g. pecusa can define gay sex as congruent with Scripture’s view of love).

Several times in Section IV Hooker demonstrates a higher view of Scripture than our contemporary liberals, calling Scripture “the oracles of God” and speaking of “the sacred authority of Scripture.” (xiv, 2)  In Scripture, God gives us “the way of life.”  (3)  In this same part, Hooker mentions that various kinds of truth contained in Scripture: “natural, historical, foreign, supernatural, so much as the matter handled requireth.”  Scripture has “no defect.” (5)  Some other phrases of Hooker from this section: “the reverend authority and dignity of the Scripture (XV, 4), “those oracles of the true and living God” (ibid.).  In XVI Hooker speaks of the eternal law of God that we have been given to follow. 

I can’t imagine liberals affirming much of this about Scripture or following God’s Word in the manner that Hooker expresses.

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Posted: 22 January 2010 05:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Fr. Russell,

Could you direct me to a proper link to purchase your paperback edition of Hooker?  I looked, with no knowledge really where to look, for such a thing and was unable to procure a set so I purchased a 120 year old Oxford/Clarendon Complete Works which, if I’m not mistaken is the Keble edition.  I’m terrified I’m going to break them before I finish the Third book of the Laws which I am just on. * I meant to say please in the first post!

And for the record, having just read over the first two books, though being in no way sympathetic generally to Fr. Russell’s overall tone on this site nor his revisionist rendering of sexuality, I think his interpretation of Hooker is exactly how I read Hooker’s first two books.

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Posted: 23 January 2010 12:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Tony Hunt,could you show me from Hooker how I am misreading Hooker?

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Posted: 23 January 2010 12:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Fr. Steel,

I don’t think that you two are saying things as differently as you think.  I simply agree with Fr. Russell’s comment, #11 I believe.  Hooker seems to think that Scripture provides that knowledge which is necessary to Salvation and is not searchable out by human reason.  Even though many sorts of Law can be found in Scripture, including “natural law,” Scripture’s purpose is to fill in what lacks in human knowledge.

I also agree with you in the sense that there seems absolutely no way that Hooker can be used “according to the manner in which [he] wrote” to support more recent schemes of theological revision of the Church’s understanding of sexuality OR of authority.  Hooker also says “Let novelty, therefore, give way and let ancient custom prevail” Laws (V. 39, 145) in the midst of an argument that lays out why the Church’s longstanding Tradition is not to be treated lightly.

I have no interest in getting into some “conservative/liberal” argument of Gospel abandonment, I’m just putting in my two cents on Hooker and Scripture in the first two books, being at this point the only ones I’ve read.  I make no claims to expertise.

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Posted: 23 January 2010 04:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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Tony Hunt - 22 January 2010 05:49 PM

Fr. Russell,

Could you direct me to a proper link to purchase your paperback edition of Hooker?  I looked, with no knowledge really where to look, for such a thing and was unable to procure a set so I purchased a 120 year old Oxford/Clarendon Complete Works which, if I’m not mistaken is the Keble edition.  I’m terrified I’m going to break them before I finish the Third book of the Laws which I am just on. * I meant to say please in the first post!

And for the record, having just read over the first two books, though being in no way sympathetic generally to Fr. Russell’s overall tone on this site nor his revisionist rendering of sexuality, I think his interpretation of Hooker is exactly how I read Hooker’s first two books.

That edition of 1000 copies took 10 years to sell, which is a comment upon how hungry Anglican clergy of all stripes are to read Mr. Hooker.  I think I am about to be able to make it available again and will keep you posted.  There are pdf’s around that are free.  I am also looking at getting it available on Kindle.

Mt revisionism on sexuality come from a the same reading of the first books that you indicate you share.  Marriage and sexual taboos were matters of civil not moral law (even the 39 Articles knows that).

I will let you know as soon as I have the Hooker ready.

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Posted: 23 January 2010 05:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Tony (and others) -

Having just come to this discussion, I would like to point out that there are two paperback readers in Hooker currently available.  The first is published in the series Cambridge Texts in the History of Political Thought (isbn: 0521379083), contains the entirety of the Preface and Books one and eight (the listing on Amazon.com notwithstanding).  The second reader, which I think is an excellent introduction to Hooker’s thought as a whole, may be found in the wonderful series Canterbury Studies in Spiritual Theology (isbn: 1853119911).  It contains excerpts from all eight books and thereby does a fine job introducing interested readers to the whole scope of Hooker’s arguments.  Philip Secor did a modern English edition of Hooker’s sermons some years ago (isbn: 0281054142) and a modern English edition of the fifth book of the Laws (isbn: 0281055858).  Other than these, the Folger Library Edition is available at a hefty price, although the older Keble edition is now published in various editions by folks like BiblioBazaar (just type “Works of Richard Hooker” into amazon.com to see).  The best secondary source on Hooker is the wonderful Richard Hooker and the Construction of Christian Community (isbn: 086698206X).  I cannot recommend it highly enough.

Best,
Benjamin

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Posted: 23 January 2010 05:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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Ok think of Hooker’s position this way, or at least ponder it.  When he considers Scripture he draws two lines.

One line is between those things necessary for salvation and those things not.  You can best place that line by reading his Learned Discourse on Justification, where he offers the most minimalist possible description of what is necessary for salvation.  Not only is it minimal, it is nigh unto impossible to lose justifying righteousness once accepted.  It is nigh unto impossible to overturn the foundations of the faith, the believe that Jesus is Savior, with even the most pernicious church docttrine (the RC’s).

Draw this first line down the left side of the page.

On the right side draw another line parallel to the first. To the right of that line is the abuse of scripture.  Abuse is the extensions of scripture into realms where discredit is brought upon it because it is no long being utilized in congruence with its purpose.  Creationism would be an apt example.  Hooker would place right on that line those who argue that scripture teaches all things simply, rather than all things necessary for salvation.

Between the two lines there is a good bit that Scripture may say tings about, but it is Reason and the principles he lays out in Books II, III and IV and then illuminates in V-VIII that determines whether or not Scripture still commands in those arenas.  Scripture is not, I repeat not a guide for all things simply.

The fight over homosexuality seems to boil down to two assertions.  one is that because it is a choice it is immoral.  The second is that even if it is not a choice, because Scripture sorta says something about it it is prohibited. There is a third ancillary one about sex outside of marriage, which is married of course to a false notion that scripture uniformly defines marriage as between one man and one woman. 

We should remember also that the Law of Nature (that is the open ended learning about Nature through observation) is itself a source fo revelation about God. And the Law of Reason, too, is from God as well.  Remember too that Hooker does not share the general view of either the conformists or the Presbyterians that humanity is so depraved that Reason cannot function.  It cannot show is the supernatural path to salvation, but even fallen human appetites push us towards the supernatural.

So in the present moment there is good reason to accept that homosexuality is not a choice but an ontological condition. Those who usually make the second argument have grudgingly conceded that point.  Even those who argue that homosexuality is a disease or an addiction have conceded that it is an ontological event, not a moral one. But I am sure that many will still argue the relevance of evidence from nature, but I would argue that Hooker would find himself guided by such new learning. 

The second argument, that even if ontological homosexuality should not happen because it is forbidden in Leviticus, fails on the Hooker test to rise to something necessary for salvation.  If we make the Levitical passages normative we have to ask upon what warrant we so flagrantly ignore other portions of the Jewish Law.  Since this is not part of the moral laws of the Hebrew Scripture, it is time and custom bound and therefore no necessarily normative for us.  We are no more bound to obey it, than say to obey God’s command to put to death people who fail to keep the Sabbath holy.  There’s just tons of HS law that we set aside and the Levitical passages are among them.  I would argue as well that the CS comments are time ans situation bound, and again we do not follow all the patterns even of the Jerusalem Council.

So for my revisionist money the path set by Mr. Hooker easily brings us to an inclusive place about homosexuality. In fact those who hyperventilate about it, as in Uganda at the moment and well, in the US too, actually do damage to scripture through the violence they incite. Re-read the passages in Hooker on the law of Equity too, another principle of law that he applies.  If the application of a law would do more damage than the good it intends then the law can be set aside.

As for marriage.  The simple solution is to bless glbt relationships.  Then there is no issue of sex outside of marriage.  The Dobsonesque version of marriage is neither Scripturally nor historically accurate.  Now we can argue about that too, and of course hear the calumnies that we revisionist support polygamy and polyamory, but in the end we will need to see that marriage is a mutuable estate and there are good and merciful reasons for that.

So there is a short discourse on the scheme of Hooker’s laws.

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Posted: 23 January 2010 06:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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Still not knowing enough to say what Hooker would do with homosexuality, I wonder what he would do with Scripture and the broader subject of “human sexuality”?

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Posted: 23 January 2010 07:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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Charlie Clauss - 23 January 2010 06:22 PM

Still not knowing enough to say what Hooker would do with homosexuality, I wonder what he would do with Scripture and the broader subject of “human sexuality”?

As I read both Jesus and Paul their principal focus is on the in-breaking Kingdom of God.  Friends, family, worldly advancement, all of that is irrelevant to the Kingdom work.  Creating and expousing human and broader social structures is not particularly their interest, nor is creating a new Law from the Gospel.

Only later is the possibly Pauline letters do we see the community coming to terms with the fact that the end is not imminent so they have to decide how to relate to the culture around them.  At that point the epistolary material recommends chameleon like life….practice your faith life so as to stay under the radar, look as much as you can like the people around you. 

That doesn’t work either and so we come to Revelation, with its promise of apocalyptic redress for people being persecuted even for staying under the radar and gently building communities of faith.

So the currents debates and hysteria about family life is more akin to the discussions in the later epistolary material than to Jesus’ and Paul’s urgency for the Kin(g)dom.

Were one to use a virus metaphor one might suggest that the fiery world upheaving memetic virus of Jesus mutates through Paul and into the early church until it can live in the host without killing the host or having the host kill it.

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