Dan - without trying to compare to the holocaust, non-the-less the conservatives (we prefer to say orthodox) have frankly suffered hugely at the hands of the Schori/Beers juggernaut.  I have now stepped outside except for forays to this forum and others while in the US for vacations.  Thank God for early retirement and the CPF and for a province where I can bloom.
PS the bishop in question really does fear the wrath of Schori and Beers.  So sad.

Hi Ian,

Thank you for your reply, but I’m curious as to which Anglican Communion you are wanting to be a part of that does not include the ordination of women.  The Church of England ordains women to the presbyterate and is well on its way to doing so to the episcopate.  In fact in fewer generations than you have suggested, it is very possible we could have a woman as Archbishop of Canterbury.  However, I do suspect that an alternative Anglican Communion is in the works.  I’ve believed this for some time now.  I also suspect that while women are being tolerated in ordained ministry in this alternative Communion, it will not last for long.  Is this the one you wish to join?

In Christ,
Shawn

It is not a case of joining an alternate AC.  I do not accept the question as posed. The AC has split and one finds oneself in one of three places.  None of these is perfect so we make compromises.  You asked for what I would like in my “dream” version, and I answered.  However the three parts:
The Anglican as in GAFCON which involves the majority of Anglicans in the world and which contains both those who have departed in Canada, USA and Brazil as well as the many more who remain in the AC but in broken or impaired communion with TEC.
The Anglicans of ACNA in North America, who include FIFNA, REC and other groups that are Anglican either through overseas Provinces that have given “covering” or had set up alternate groups not connected to Canterbury.  This is a local manifestation and it includes folk on both sides of the WO issues ( there are three stands taken there and a compromise is holding which you suggest may be iffy.)
The Anglicans of the “West” dominated by TEC, Canada, Wales, Scotland, NZ, and parts of Australia, Cof E (as a “national/established Church it has other issues that we do not have in the US) - to these can be added the TEC fiefdoms such as Mexico, Honduras, Brazil (save Recife) and some others that slip my mind.
I should add that there is a group of onlookers who for a variety of reasons do not have any substantive side to take as they are national churches made up of a consortium that includes Anglicans and which still count as Anglican Provinces.

So - I have a set of allegiances that are all real.  I am ordained in the C of E and thus that is my continuing affiliation due to birth and ordination.  I am a retired priest in good standing in TEC thanks to a good diocese and a godly Bishop who has not abandoned the Apostolic Tradition.  I am a priest of the Southern Cone as I am resident in Peru where I work as a missionary, notwithstanding annual time spent in New England where I attend mostly a variety of Episcopal Churches (one I have assisted at for over 30 years now) and yet am also supported by groups who have left TEC and have their own fellowships.  I support the GAFCON folk and my work in Kenya undergirds that.  I was a CP rector, and as a retired rector continue to be part of that community although no longer listed as a rector as I am not).  In certain dioceses I am supportive of those who have left TEC as had I had to suffer under their bishops I would have left too.  I am supported as a missionary by Anglicans as well as Episcopalians (TEC, though there other Provinces in the world that title themselves Episcopal such as Rwanda and Scotland so why the US can say that it is THE EC escapes me!) - the contrasting use of these words is another subject however at this stage it is an of used distinction about which there has been some discussion as in the US they now mean distinctively different things.  I am canonically obedient to bishops in both TEC as well as Peru.  So there - it is all about compromise according to where God has called me.  None is ideal.  I personally avoid heretics and apostates as the Scriptures enjoin me.

It is not sufficient to reduce the choices to a few or even one issue.  I believe the WO issues are not simple as the Scriptures are not quite so clear as some make out.  There are three orders of ministry and not all may be treated the same necessarily.  On homoerotic behavior the Scriptures speak with one voice as to its permissibility as well as about sexual expression needing to be confined to the marriage of a man and a woman (reflected in Lambeth 1.10 of 1998 as the mind of the Communion and constantly lifted up as the teaching of the Communion).  Such behavior is not permitted.  Thus the issue is one of the authority of Scripture.  At ordination we accept the Scriptures as the Word of God.  Many of us also took the vow to banish and drive away all false doctrines contrary to the Word of God.  I continue to do so, wherever I find myself as well as to build up followers of Jesus wherever I am blessed to encounter them.

Hi Ian,

Thank you.  I appreciate it is a complex situation.  You are right that I asked you for your “dream” of what would happen.  I hope you have not taken my questions to be impertinent.  They were not meant to be.  Rather, I think this exercise is an important one for all of us to undergo from time to time.  As we all know, there can be so many competing voices pulling at us from one side or another.  I think its important that we stop and ask ourselves which is from God.  It is one of my beliefs that those that deal most squarely with reality as reality rather than reality as we would like it to be are most likely to come from God (among many other factors in discernment). So, while it might be my dream that gay and lesbian persons and our committed relationships would be honored throughout the Church, that is not reality at this time. We deal with the complex and ofttimes dirty reality in which we live.

I did not know you were doing mission work in Peru.  I spent 3 weeks in Iquitos when I was in college on a missions trip.  At the time, I was a Baptist.  I enjoyed the experience tremendously.  As I posted here, I just got back from Honduras, which was another wonderful experience.  I hope to return soon.

Again, thank you.

In Christ,
Shawn

Ian Montgomery - 05 September 2009 06:03 PM

Dan - without trying to compare to the holocaust, non-the-less the conservatives (we prefer to say orthodox) have frankly suffered hugely at the hands of the Schori/Beers juggernaut.  I have now stepped outside except for forays to this forum and others while in the US for vacations.  Thank God for early retirement and the CPF and for a province where I can bloom.
PS the bishop in question really does fear the wrath of Schori and Beers.  So sad.

Ian,

I admit that clergy on both/all sides of the issues have suffered. I watched my own bishop be verbally abused by orthodox laymen. I saw colleagues moved from full-time to part-time employment because orthodox congregations would no longer support the diocesan budget, resulting not only in an immediate loss of income and the possibility of a lower pension. I saw valuable programs cut because of refusal of orthodox congregations to support any programs of the diocese because of the bishop’s votes at GC. And I have seen an orthodox priest who has decided to continue to serve an Episcopal parish struggle to get his vestry to change its mind about using withholding of financial support as a protest.

What I find somewhat less than helpful are overblown assertions of great suffering by clergy who are/will draw pensions from CPG.

Daniel

Why is not necessary that either track be excluded from participation in the Instruments of Communion?  Because we are still family, and families do lots of things together. Our formal efforts at governance are just the tip of the iceberg. The natural realignment that Rowan describes can take place through Covenant provinces choosing to work more closely with Covenant churches in collaborative ministries, and choosing not to pursue such ministries with non-Covenant partners.  But where both Covenant churches and non-Covenant churches share an urgent interest - such as in recovery from calamities - they might choose to work together.  In this sense, the result over time would indeed be much like the relationship between Methodists and Anglicans today, as Rowan envisioned.

Dan.  Of course we draw our pensions if we have earned them.  Sadly the church in which I earned mine (PECUSA) seems little related to the church that now bears the name TEC.