(from another thread)

John Hanley - 17 August 2009 02:42 PM

I recently posted scriptural references that seem to speak to homosexuality at:
http://covenant-communion.net/index.php/forums/viewthread/969/.
I have tried looking for similar scriptural references that might pertain to ordination of women, but with little success. The closest I come to is:

1 Corinthians 14
34. women are to remain quiet in the assemblies, since they have no permission to speak: theirs is a subordinate part, as the Law itself says.
35. If there is anything they want to know, they should ask their husbands at home: it is shameful for a woman to speak in the assembly.

So….is that it?  I would appreciate anyone directing me to scriptures relevant to ordination of women. Thanks.

Also, ordination of women has made sense to me because women constitute one half of humanity.  I have not seen this referred to in this discussion.

Hi John,
Paul also wrote (in 1 Tim 2) “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.” I must admit I have never understood his reasoning here! If Eve was tricked into sinning, but Adam did so with his eyes open, why is she the one who is barred from teaching? OTOH, maybe that does make a lot of sense. You don’t want a teacher who gets tricked into believing that what is wrong is actually right. Maybe such a teacher is more likely to mislead others than one who knowingly deviates from the Apostles’ teaching….

In contrast to these two verses, Paul also wrote (in 1 Cor 11) “every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.” I don’t see how a woman could “pray or prophesy” in silence, so I don’t understand the two preceding verses to mean that women in church must be absolutely silent at all times. I think there are some people do interpret those verses in that way, even to the extent of forbidding women to sing in the choir. For a woman to act as cantor, which I have done at times, would be totally unacceptable in their view! In light of this perhaps I should have worn a hat or a veil when I did so (though I don’t know if head-covering applies to all women or just married ones).

Other verses that many people cite supporting ordination of men only include 1 Timothy 3:2 (I don’t recall at the moment whether an “overseer” is a priest or a bishop) or 3:12 (deacon) and Titus 1:6. They argue that since the overseers and deacons are referred to as “husband”, they must therefore be men.

Opponents of WO also sometimes refer to the fact that the original twelve Apostles and the original seven deacons were all men, and if women were supposed to be included in these orders those first selected would have included women. This is sometimes countered by pointing out the reference to “Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchrea” in Romans 16:1 (the word translated servant here is the same word that is translated deacon in other places), and to “Junia (or Junias), excellent among the apostles” in Romans 16:8. As I understand it there is some dispute about the correct translation of this verse, firstly over whether the original text had Junia (a woman’s name) or Junias (a man’s) and second, over whether the proper translation is “excellent among” (indicating that Junia/Junias was an apostle) or something more like “well known to” or “highly esteemed by” the Apostles.

Paul also sends greetings (in Colossians 4:15) to “Nympha and the church in her house”. I have sometimes wondered about the early congregations that met in homes, and who presided at the eucharist? Was it the homeowner/head of household, and if that was a woman as in this case, would she have done so? Any scholars of early church history out there who know the answer to that one?

That’s all I can think of off the top of my head. I hope you find it helpful.

Karen

Here is a great resource for question about gender equality.

Karen, thank you for the scripture references relating to women’s role(s) in the church. I will study them. 

I had wondered if those who oppose women’s ordination would also object to women acting as layreaders, choir leaders, or teaching an adult Sunday School class that included men (based on those scriptures).  I should think it would be a brave husband who would tell his wife that she could not do those things in the current day!

Charlie Clauss - 18 August 2009 01:57 PM

Here is a great resource for question about gender equality.

That reminds me, I forgot Galatians 3:28. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus” is sometimes cited as a reason that ordination should not be restricted to men only.

Karen

John Hanley - 18 August 2009 09:34 PM

Karen, thank you for the scripture references relating to women’s role(s) in the church. I will study them. 

I had wondered if those who oppose women’s ordination would also object to women acting as layreaders, choir leaders, or teaching an adult Sunday School class that included men (based on those scriptures).  I should think it would be a brave husband who would tell his wife that she could not do those things in the current day!

John,
Some do and some don’t. I know that at least one of the “other” Anglican bodies (I forget now whether it was the REC, the APA or someone else) doesn’t allow women to be lay readers. The APA has Deaconesses, I recall from another thread, but I don’t know if they permit women lay readers or girl acolytes. OTOH, a few years ago on our local interdenominational group’s “Pulpit Exchange Sunday” our guest preacher was a Roman Catholic woman, a member of a lay preaching order. I was really surprised—until then I had no idea there were women preachers in the RCC.

Speaking of Deaconesses, that reminds me of another passage that may be relevant, 1Tim 3:8-12.

Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Greek uses the same word for “woman” or “wife”. (Possibly one of the commenters who actually speaks Greek—I don’t—can explain how translators decide which to use when going from Greek to English.) Where the KJV has “their wives” the Greek text has “women”, and so there is some disagreement over whether St Paul is referring here to the deacons’ wives, or to women ordained as deacons, or to Deaconesses. As a result of this uncertainty about the correct translation, there are not a few people who hold that women can be deacons, but not priests or bishops.

Karen